Refinishing the Saloon and Cockpit Tables

[Groggo]

Hello James,
Thought I'd chime in here with regard to the table, which you said you are also doing.  I imagine that you will remove it, and I'd like to warn you and all here about how the salon table was installed by QL, and why you might want to modify it.  Had a squall come up one night, running in fairly calm seas with the hatches open due to AC failure.  On watch Helmsman thought he could handle the reef and tuck by himself (all furling controls lead to the cockpit).  What he forgot was the hatches, when it started to rain he didn't get the crew up.  (Had a talk about getting the crew up for ANY negative weather change later........).  I woke up with rain falling on my head, closed the hatch, and then roused the crew to close hatches and head to the cockpit to evaluate.  As you all know, the salon hatches cannot be reached from the sole.  Closing them, the boat rocked and I dropped onto the starboard settee, then rolled to port on the sole and into the table.  It was an easy roll, no bruise, got lucky.  However, the salon table broke away from the sole.  To say I was surprised is to be very understated.  Upon investigation, here is what I found:

1.  The bottom of the table frame fits into a beautiful base.  Unfortunately, as it slides into the base from above, it stops with the bottom only halfway into the base, not down to the sole.  Bad design.
2.  Worse, either because the frame does not go all the way to the sole, or to hide the screws (the bottom of the table overhangs the base as it's bottom slides into the base), QL put the screws which secure the table through the base and the frame insert VERY close to the top edge of the base.
3.  Extra Worse, QL did NOT secure the table on all four sides.  They used only 4 screws; 2 each on the inboard and aft sides of the table.  There were NO screws in the forward or outboard sides.

You know what happened.  Given nothing to hold them the screws ripped off the tiny bit of wood at the top of the base, and the table came off the base and became a danger to all while at sea for the next three days.  We packed it with cushions and lashed it to the settee to immobilize it.  When I got to port, I took the whole thing apart and saw what they had done.  I notified QL, but they never responded.

So, if you take your table out to refinish it, I hope you find that at least you have screws on all four sides.  Even if you do, they are likely to be placed so high (and close to the top edge of the base) that they cannot possibly secure the table.  What I did was to cut and place strips of hardwood onto the bottom of the frame base with glue and screws such that the frame base with "extenders" now reaches to the bottom of the base on the inside.  This provides plenty of room to place the table mounting screws lower down on the base where they actually can provide useful grip.  Of course, I had to repair the pieces of the base at the top which had been torn off by what was surprisingly low side pressure when I slid into the table.  I carefully refitted them, also with glue and screws, so that the base was again flat and square on the top so as to receive the table frame bottom correctly.  I then reinstalled it using, of course, screws on ALL FOUR sides.  It's solid as a rock now, and will never again be a hazard at sea.  I would suggest that everyone check the base of their tables to see how QL mounted them.  Hopefully, the guy who took the shortcuts on my boat never worked on any of yours.  Here are a couple of pictures......

[Nirvana]

Thank you James. 

It took me a few weeks to feel comfortable actually stepping on it.  LOL

I ultimately converted this clean room setup to a roll-up (no 2x4s) design attaching PVC to the bottom of the plastic with carpet tape so I can roll it up and fix it to the ceiling when not in use.  I got Zip-Wall zippers from Lowes to close up the corners and make a door in the plastic.

I now use this regularly as I do woodcraft projects as a hobby.

[James Chapin]

Ken,

That looks amazing. Great job! I love the room you built. You really did that the right way!

I'm in the process of stripping the wood and will have all the parts bare by the end of this weekend. I'm going to varnish the pieces in the garage with heaters on. We won't open the door except to go work on the parts, so effectively a dust free room. But I like your built in shelves a lot!

Thanks for the pics.

James

[Nirvana]

I recently refinished the sole in Nirvana, at winter haul  removed the whole thing and took it into my shop. 
In planning that project I tested several products the prior spring including 2-Parts, Epiphanes and three different Total Boat products.  I landed on Epiphanes but I took the whole winter and built a clean room out of 40mil plastic and a box fan with a standard a/c filter for inbound fresh air.

I started with sanding to bare wood, wiping down with denatured alcohol then 3-4 coats of 90% Epiphanes brushing thinner to 10% Epiphanes.  This was to get the lacquer to seriously penetrate the teak.  After that i gradually increased the ratio.  Ultimately I ended at 25% thinner/75% Epiphanes.  The higher thinner % helped to allow it to flow better and gave it a very nice shine, but also required lots of coats for build-up.

Because I was working on the sole I wound up putting 16-20 coats, high temps and thinner allow short cure times, sometimes two coats per day, and teak holly ply from Queen Long is manufactured with 3/8 slats of solid wood on top of marine plywood so the minor gaps soaked up a massive amount of lacquer.  Yep, it took all winter..

For the hand rails (following year) I used Total Boats Lust because in my testing it was easy to apply (off the boat) and after it sat for several weeks in testing (and after the project) waiting to be installed it became hard as rock and absolutely gorgeous.  Very please with it after three years.

Some pics attached.

[etuman]

Companionway steps and anything else that you might step on, like the sole, I would consider a top coat of satin finish for.  It may not actually improve traction, but it would at least not appear slippery.

Any thing that you can remove and varnish in a dust free climate controlled environment, you should.  If you can fit the ladder in your vehicle and bring it home, do it.  It will make the job much more manageable.

Interior surfaces also don

[James Chapin]

Companionway steps are in the spring for me as well. Are you going to use the same high-gloss varnish? Will you do those in place or remove them from the boat? I haven't looked at that yet, but will probably try to remove them and take them to my garage when I can better control the environment. It depends on how QL finished them: in place or separate.

 

[etuman]

They are metal, probably powder coated but I am not sure.  I havent touched those, yet!

My next varnish project will be the companionway.  Thats for the spring though.  Its too cold now.

Eric

[James Chapin]

That looks great. Interesting that the cupholders are white as ours are wood and need a new coat of varnish. Did you paint those, and if so, with what paint?

That made me think that I might print a cupholder to replace the wood one. It would never need refinishing because it would be white all the way through. Something ELSE to explore!

[etuman]

Here is the pic of the table, provided the upload works!

Eric

[etuman]

Hi James,

There are two products by Epiphanes, one that doesn't require the sanding between coats if you apply it in a short enough time period after applying the prior coat.  I don't have experience with that product, but I can tell you unequivocally, that the results with the Spar Varnish were spectacular!

I tried to upload a picture of my cockpit table but the list server kicked it back to me for some reason.  I will try again from my phone, maybe using a smaller version that you can zoom in on.

There is so much depth to the surface you can see reflections that look like they are shimmering at the bottom of a pool!

Eric

[James Chapin]

Eric,

Greatly appreciate the stepped approach you wrote. I think the last thing I varnished was my wood Sunfish blades back in the 70's....hours and hours getting those blades fared and smooth.

Have you ever hot-coated the varnish? I haven't but heard that putting the successive coats on after the first 100% varnish coat has moved past the tacky stage reduces the time by half and no sanding is required. It's best to let the next to last coat really cure and then sand before the last coat.

I'll try a test with the Epiphanes and see how it goes.


Thanks for all your input. 



 

[etuman]

I just refinished my cockpit table and the companion way boards.

I did it the old school method, seven coats of epiphanes spar varnish, sanding between each coat and thinning the first 3 with mineral spirits.

Take the old finish off using a heat gun and scraper, sand it using 100 grit and then de grease using acetone.  You can use an orbital for this sanding process only, not for the in between coats mentioned next.

Bring the project indoors, temperatures no lower than 65F and humidity no greater than 50%.

Apply the first cost thinned 1:1 with mineral spirits.  Wait 24 hours between each coat (2 sides means 48 hours before each new side).

Thin the second coat by about half, thin the third coat by about 25%.

Hand sand the thinned coats using 320 grit, then the full coats using 220 grit.

You will need to put a maintenance coat on every six months to a year, for the exterior finishes.  Its relatively easy to do, if you keep up with it.  Just light sanding or even a 3m pad to scuff the surface, then apply a single coat.

There is really nothing like it!


Eric
Moon Taxi, H44, #22
Fernandina Beach, Fl

[joel]

Epiphanes makes several different varnishes, so be sure you know which one your friend is talking about. https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/product/paints/varnish?filterBy=%26filter.g_brand:Epifanes
 
There are two fast-dry products (Rapid-Coat and Rapid Clear).  Rapid coat is slightly tinted to match older varnishes.  The nice thing is you can do 3-4 coats in a day. 

All of the tests I've seen from Practical Boat Owner say that 2 part varnishes are harder to apply but last much longer.  Ive never tried them, but I know that 2 part paint is much harder to apply than 1 part.

I wonder what Queen Long uses, and if they spray the tables to get such a nice finish.

Joel

[James Chapin]

Thanks for the info. Do you have any thoughts on these? I've been told by someone who works at Mystic Seaport that they use the first one on a lot of their boats.

1) For parts that don't flex a lot, Epifanes, a Dutch product.  (pronounced ep-ee-FAH-nis).  It’s thick, so builds quickly.   If I were you, I would strip the piece, warm it, and then put on a coat thinned 50:50 with the appropriate thinner, then 75 varnish:25 thinner, then straight varnish.  Total: 4 coats interior, probably 8 or 9 cockpit. 
OR
2) Strip, then seal with a wood sealer, then YachtSpar, a high-build varnish.  That seems a good one…

[Hobiehobie]

We used good quality marine high gloss varnish (Petit Captains Varnish) and for the cockpit table we took it down to bare wood (a lotta sanding!) and did two coats of west system epoxy followed by about 5 coats of varnish.  No matter what the product, the trick is to do the coats indoors in a dust tent with tack cloth, sanding with 300 plus grit between each coat and put it on as thin as possible.  If you don