Author Topic: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44  (Read 1047 times)

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bjhsail

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  • 2000 Hylas 46 "Helios"
Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 08:24:12 PM »
Chris on SeaGlub, thanks for the feedback on your anchor raising method, and Andy, thanks so much for the pics, really helps to see those.
Brad
SV Helios
2000 H46, #27

Knoxan

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 06:54:23 PM »
Attached are photographs of anchor chain restraining bar on H46. Fabricated from ss plate and attached at one end to existing bolts on Maxwell 2200 windless and through deck at other end.
The black area is a tough rubber oversleeve added to prevent chain from chafing on bar and damaging galvanising. May add spacers someday to raise the bar slightly to minimise contact.

Regards

Andy
H46 #32
True Brew

Knoxan

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 05:24:54 PM »
Hi Brad
Will get a picture sometime soon. Boat on hard for winter and due a visit in the next week or so.

Regards

Andy

SeaGlub

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 03:45:21 PM »
Brad, I would agree with Norm on Blue Moon, when retrieving I find it best to just keep the momentum going.  I have had trouble if I stop the anchor just just short of the roller then try to to continue to retrieve.  I find that giving it 1-2' of runway chain has been sufficient.  The long shank does try to come in contact with our headsail furler, however, so that is something I've had to be aware of.

We've just celebrated our 1 year anniversary of cruising in Mexico, and still love the anchor, especially after sitting through a 50-60 knot gale where winds swapped over 180 degrees at 1am and the anchor reset within a couple of feet and then held the rest of the night.

C&M
seaglub.com
C&M
SeaGlub H46 #22

bjhsail

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 02:28:44 PM »
Norm and Andy, thanks for the replies and insights - very helpful. Andy, it would be great to see a picture of the setup that you describe, with the chain restraint. Would it be possible to post that, or, if not, send me a pic? Not sure what's possible here on this site.
Thanks,
Brad
SV Helios

Knoxan

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 01:42:14 PM »
On our H46 we have a 33kg Rocna with 70m 10mm chain and a Maxwell 2200 windless. The only issue we had when we installed the Rocna was the length of shank which came up so high over the standard roller on recovery that it pulled the chain off the gypsy. We fashioned a chain restraint which is deck mounted just forward of the gypsy which keeps the chain down. Recovery has been faultless ever since.

Andy
True Brew
H46#32

Norm

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 01:20:07 PM »
On Blue Moon (H 44) we have an 85 lb Mantus on 250 feet 5/16" G4 chain and 50 ft 3/4" nylon for a primary, and a Fortress FX 37 with 15' 3/8" G4 and 250' 3/4" nylon as secondary. Both of these anchors are one size up from the recommended size for the boat. The Mantus fits perfectly on the existing port bow roller. I bought the Mantus over a Rocna mainly based on the recommendation of an experienced friend of mine who had a boat with a Mantus (and loved it), then bought a new boat that had a Rocna. He said the Rocna failed to set or dragged several times over the next few months (Chesapeake Bay, mud or mud/clay bottom) so he put it on Craig's List and bought a Mantus, and is happy again. I used the Fortress for 10 years, and found that when set, it held wonderfully, but it took some finesse in technique to get it to set (I needed to reset it about 25% of the time regardless), which made me worry about it resetting in a wind shift at 2:00 AM. The Mantus sets first time, every time (at least so far  for me and my friend...). I was recently the anchor boat for a 4-boat raft; the boats ranged from 38-45 feet, and totaled about 100,000 lbs with all the associated windage of 4 masts, etc. We had a thunderstorm come through, with 25-30 kt winds, gusts to 35, in a 180 degree direction from how the anchor was originally set (in typical Bay mud). Several boats in the anchorage dragged, but our raft did not move once our swing to the new wind direction was finished.
Regarding raising the Mantus over the bow roller, we had some of the same issues. Looking at the geometry, when 1" of the anchor shank is above the roller, it is being pulled at a 90 degree angle by the windlass. That 1" is compared to the approx. 48" of anchor shank hanging below the roller with a big weight (the anchor) on the end of it. Overcoming that huge lever arm differential is what causes the problem. At first we would slow down retrieval just as the anchor was coming over the roller because we were worried about this issue, but that made the situation worse. We found that if retrieval speed is maintained, the momentum of the anchor coming up pushes more of the tip of the shank over the roller, lessening the lever arm differential and enabling the anchor to come over the roller. At least most of the time.
Norm
H44-29 Blue Moon

bjhsail

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 02:59:12 AM »
Hi SeaGlub - we have a 65 lb Mantus on Helios, our 2000 Hylas 46, hull #27, and I was wondering if you've had any issues with raising your Mantus, particularly pulling it up over the bow roller with the windlass. We have a Maxwell 2200, and have had instances when the windlass seems to stall out right when the anchor shackle gets to the roller, and the windlass has to pull the anchor shank to horizontal. If you (or anyone else) has had similar experiences, I'd be curious how you addressed it - hinged bow roller? extended roller? ?
Thanks!
Brad
SV Helios

SeaGlub

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2017, 04:24:09 AM »
We're on an 85lb Mantus with 300' of 5/8" chain. Too much weight?  You tell that to my wife who sleeps very well for 9-10 hours because we've never dragged. Plus we're cruisers, not a racers, our keel is 13,000lbs so overall weight isn't something I've been too concerned with.
C&M
SeaGlub H46 #22

johnspiegel

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2017, 05:13:44 AM »
I've you're in the market for a new anchor, you really should watch some of Steve Goodwin's fascinating anchor set/reset test videos. He's created a nifty floating go-pro camera rig to film anchors as they set and reset (or fail to do so). A great place to start would be this compilation/summary video: https://youtu.be/l59f-OjWoq0 . His premise is that most modern anchors have plenty of holding power - the important question is whether they set consistently and also reset if the wind or current changes direction. You can jump to his recommendations here: https://youtu.be/l59f-OjWoq0?t=34m40s (steel Spade, steel Sarca Excel, or steel Super Sarca).

In his videos (and also some Practical Sailor tests), sometimes the roll-bar anchors (manson supreme and rocna) had trouble resetting. It appears that they get can fouled with seabed which throws off the weight distribution and keeps them from digging in to reset. If you have a Rocna or are considering one, you really should watch Steve's Rocna test: https://youtu.be/WL9JL9AK6ss . That video caused John Harris of Morgan's Cloud to rethink his Rocna recommendation: https://www.morganscloud.com/2016/08/13/anchors-resetting-failures-with-rocna-and-some-thoughts-on-vulcan/ . Just to be clear, this is artificial torture testing at short scope and extreme 180-degree resets in one kind of seabed. But there are other anchors that performed well in these tests.

For Vesper, I decided to replace our 45 lb CQR with a giant 110 lb Sarca Excel. My wife thinks it looks ridiculous on our bow, I need to use two shackles to attach it to my smaller chain, and I need to get a new roller or re-machine the slot. But as Don Casey says, "No anchor ever dragged because it was too big." I'm also following Beth Leonard's advice that you should have a storm anchor; and if you're going to carry a storm anchor, you might as well just put it on your bow and use it all the time. That way you can show up a new-to-you anchorage with fatigued crew, drop the anchor and not worry about, regardless if poor holding ground or less-than-perfect anchoring technique.

-John
Vesper, H46 #30

burtpreston

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 02:14:17 AM »
On Exuberant we anchor out about 200 nights per year and have done so for the last six years. Our Rocna 33 (73 pounds) has never let us down. It does not use weights, but rather geometry to aim the point into the bottom. That means that the point is smaller and pointier so we find that it sets well in grass, which provides superior holding. Also, the bigger surface of the shovel means better holding in soft mud.

Since we travel between Maine and the Bahamas the water depths that we encounter are rarely over 25 feet. Thus we use 130 feet of 3/8 BBB chain attached to 220 feet of rope rode. We can have 5 to 1 scope in 25 feet of depth (30 feet to bow roller) and have only chain touching the bottom. If the wind picks up over 20 to 30 knots we let out more scope (rope rode), but in that much wind the rope never touches the bottom and we end up with maybe 80 feet of snubber to reduce the stress on the rode. This is important in winds over 40 knots, short snubbers can fail!

The real benefit of the hybrid rope/chain rode is the weight reduction. Ten feet of 3/8 chain weighs 15 pounds. The
savings can go into a bigger anchor or a second anchor on the bow. We carry a 66 pound Bruce with 80 feetof 3/8 chain and 200 feet of rope rode as our second anchor. If you have to drop your main anchor due to some problem, I like having a backup. In total we carry 210 feet of chain, 40 less than many boats. 40 feet weighs 60 pounds, which is the weight of our second anchor.

Burt Preston - Exuberant H44 - 83

Knoxan

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 05:36:20 PM »
Here on the west coast of Scotland the seabed changes from sand to mud to weed to rock from bay to bay and sometimes across the same bay. Our H46 came with a 25kg delta which was very difficult to set but once in held well. Changed it to a 33kg Rocna and have never looked back. Sets quickly and holds well in all conditions except rock but what does. Can't say whether it is design or weight but it works for me. Personally, I go for weight first and design second and a combination of both gives a good nights sleep.

Andy
H46#32 True Brew

brian black

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 04:12:29 PM »
Sounds good.  We carry 250 of 3/8 G-4 chain, plus 150 of 3/4 nylon rode forward that we could fasten to the chain.  But what you need depends a lot on where you plan to cruise.  Made the divided chain locker into just one, larger and deeper.  All is working OK

tbglynn

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 03:48:03 PM »
Most discussions of anchors end in near bloodshed, so this is a dangerous topic to open.  On Egraine, we carry a ss 55 lb Delta on the bow with 280 feet of 3/8s chain and keep a really big Fortress, disassembled and with 30 feet of 3/8s chain in a bag in the way aft lazarette.  All the reviews I have read support the idea that the spade type anchors, Rocna, Ultra, etc. set better and have greater holding power than the earlier generation, e.g. CQR and Bruce.  They also have better holding power than the Delta and I would upgrade if money were no object (not the case) although the Delta sets like a dream.   I had experience with the Bruce on our Gulfstar and didn't love it.  The much loved CQRs I have seen dragging along a hard sandy bottom leaving hardly a mark,  so not for me thanks.  Like Brian, I don't want an extra 60 lbs of anchor, clutter and entanglements forward and we skip the second anchor.  I have had success shackling the Fortress out ahead of the Delta in tandem on the single rode.  That got us through a 60 knot blow in Anegada when everyone else spent the night trying, with varying success, to keep their boats off the beach.

joel

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Re: Primary and Secondary Anchor on Hylas 44
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 03:26:40 PM »
I know I'm undersized, with a 35 pound Delta and 25 feet of chain and 150 feet of 5/8 nylon.  A friend with a Mason 44 has a 60 pound Bruce and 300 feet of chain.

For now, my lunch hook is fine.  When we set off to do serious cruising I'll go to about a 50-60 pound anchor and 100 feet of chain plus rode.

 

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