Detachable Running Backstay-Looking for Photos and Feedback

[BlackDiamond]

I recently sold 49-057 but had modified the running backs early on as the winches got a "bit busy" when tacking.    I ended up putting multi-part purchase blocks on the standard endura braid backstays.   It worked pretty well.   In light air I just clipped them forward.  In heavy air they had enough advantage that I could get what I needed from them.  See attached.

[Nirvana]

Thank you. That is quite detail enough to picture the setup. 
It will be very nice not having that bundle of line/block on the deck when not in use.
We have been using a tie on the aft shroud to keep them taught when not in use (4:1 block pulling them slightly aft to tension).

This setup will keep the decks cleared quite a bit better.
Looking forward to it.

Ken

[Ambition]

Nirvana,
Unfortunately I do not have any photos of the installation and I am in Montreal and Ambition is in Antigua. I can however describe the installation. First step was to remove the SS wire running backstay from the mast near the head of the staysail. I purchased for Selden two new T Eye toggles that were designed to fit in the exact same mast fitting. The T Eye allows the attachment of a loop end dyneema lime. The link to Selden is attached.
https://support.seldenmast.com/en/products/rigging_hardware/toggles/t-eye_toggles.html
- 2 each T/Eye runner fitting for 8mm is part number 174-141. Retail price is US$136 each - I would check with Selden as your mast may be slightly different than mine.
- the dyneema recommended by Selden was 7mm diameter heatset
- from the rigging guide the dimension for the runners was listed as 11730mm long. I assumed this was the finished length but in the end it was the length from the toggle to the deck (I had to shorten the finished length by 18" (~450mm)
- 2 each Antal Low Friction Ring 7 mm Maximum Line Diameter $15 each
- Marlow Soft Shackles Pair Dyneema D12 7mm $30 each

So what I built was a dyneema line with a small loop at one end to connect to the T/Eye mast fitting and the opposite end terminates in a loop with the Antal low friction ring installed. That set up placed the end of the running back stay about 18" off the deck. In the storage position beside the aft shroud I use only a light piece of paracord  line to to secure the backstay to the ring fitting.
I still use my existing 4:1 block but I have no need to leave it installed and in the way. When I need to install the running backstay, I use the soft shake to make the connection between the Antal ring and the metal snap shackle on the 4:1 block assembly. I am very happy with the look, the genoa sheets no longer get tangled in the coiled runners 4:1 blocks, the blocks are stored out of the sun and weather, no noise from the SS runners against the spreaders. Life is all good! I hope this helps even without a photo.
Merrill Mant
S/V Ambition H46 #40
merrill.mant@me.com

[Nirvana]

Merrill, I would be VERY interested in getting details of your solution.  I pulled the rigging off the mast this year when we had it stepped for winter.  The intent was to solve this problem.

As we have the same boat and setup would it be too much to ask for the part number/info  Selden provided you?  It would save that step in the process. 

Also, if you have the opportunity would you mind sharing a pic or two of them in their storage state?

[Ambition]

Shaun,
On board Ambition I recently got rid of the SS running backstays and replaced it with dynemma. One of the pluses that the 4:1 blocks with cam are not required to be permanently installed to try and tension the runners when in their storage location alongside the shrouds. Now I only pull out the 4:1 blocks when needed. A light line provides enough tightness so the dyneema running backstays in place. Removed the "wad" of line that kept snagging the genoa sheets at the wrong time.
I am 100% happy with the simplicity of the install compared to the original. Selden provided me with the dyneema sizing as well as the new terminal fittings for the upper mast connection.

Merrill and Maryse
S/V Ambition H46 #40

[wurzner]

Hi Jeff and all.  First off...appreciate the responses since this user group not typically that responsive to questions relative to other groups...nice to have the dialogue.  In hindsight, it would helped to say what I have (1990 Hylas 51) and rig type (non-furling). 

Thank you all and add photos if possible.

Cheers
Shaun

[jt11791]

There may be some variation in terminology.  Check stays are typically much lower on the rig than back stays.  In my set-up, I have a single adjustable back stay.  My running back stays attach above the 2nd spreader where the stay for cutter sail attaches.   When using a spinnaker in any kinds of winds or sea state, I use the runners to limit pumping.  I have done this on my previous boats as well as some of the race boats I sailed on.  As for the winches,  I like to have a full head sail before i douse the spinnaker to depower it.  That means my primary is for the head sail and my secondary for the spinnaker sheet/guy.   So they are not available for the running backs.  I have a friend on here with a 54.  Maybe he will pipe in on his set-up as he cruised it extensively.   The rig on my boat is pretty beefy and maybe runners are not needed, the the spinnaker is equally large.

Thanks
Shaun

Okay, now I understand better.  We were close on terminology, I only call 'em backstays if they go to the masthead and what I call checkstays attach, as yours do, where the cutter stay is.  Anyhow, I haven't needed them sailing downwind under kite or poled-out headsail.  These roller-furling masts are so much stiffer than anything I ever raced with, the only times I set up the checks are when using the staysail (cuttersail).  I've only really used the checks in anger once that I can recall, when I had to sail to weather in about 45kts true.  I used the staysail and a scrap of main and cranked on the checks to keep the staysail luff from sagging off and the boat pointing high.

I don't imagine it will take much tension to stop mast pumping downwind, so your 4:1 should be fine for that, and for upwind you can always throw the 4:1 tail on a winch if you feel you need more.  (Just don't rip the toerail off). 

Fair winds,
Jeff

 

[wurzner]

There may be some variation in terminology.  Check stays are typically much lower on the rig than back stays.  In my set-up, I have a single adjustable back stay.  My running back stays attach above the 2nd spreader where the stay for cutter sail attaches.   When using a spinnaker in any kinds of winds or sea state, I use the runners to limit pumping.  I have done this on my previous boats as well as some of the race boats I sailed on.  As for the winches,  I like to have a full head sail before i douse the spinnaker to depower it.  That means my primary is for the head sail and my secondary for the spinnaker sheet/guy.   So they are not available for the running backs.  I have a friend on here with a 54.  Maybe he will pipe in on his set-up as he cruised it extensively.   The rig on my boat is pretty beefy and maybe runners are not needed, the the spinnaker is equally large.

Thanks
Shaun

[jt11791]

I could do that, but I want to keep them free for a head sail and spinnaker.   I typically use the head sail to shadow the spin at takedowns. 
Shaun

I guess I'm not clear on what you are trying to do with the stays, are these true running backstays?  The only things holding the rig up?  On my boat, the check stays (which go to the hounds) are used to tension the cutter stay when using the staysail and prevent mast pumping.  They aren't needed at all for downwind work, so the winches are free for spinnakers and headsails.  On my 54, when I do use a checkstay I use a lot of tension, probably more than I could get with a 4:1 purchase, so a winch makes it easy.

[joel]

We did exactly what you are looking at doing on our 44.

Added Wichard padeyes to the toerail.  Dyneema (8 mm?) stays with eye splices.  Softshackles to a 4:1 purchase.
We have not had to use them much, and keep them on the mast, but they do tend to slap on the mast in a breeze.

I can try to get  photos later in the week.

Joel

[wurzner]

On my boat the check-stays are run to a block on (near) the toerail and then to the primary winch, which is isn't being used as it is on the weather side.  So no 4:1 needed.
JT

I could do that, but I want to keep them free for a head sail and spinnaker.   I typically use the head sail to shadow the spin at takedowns. 
Shaun

[jt11791]

On my boat the check-stays are run to a block on (near) the toerail and then to the primary winch, which is isn't being used as it is on the weather side.  So no 4:1 needed.

-JT

[wurzner]

I replaced all my standing rigging and want to complete it with dynema running back stays.  I want to be able to keep them at the mast since I won't need them that frequently, but hook them up as needed. I am thinking two 4:1  woth a cam setup with snap shackles to attach to the dynema and toe rail.  I can use the 4:1 to tighten then up, but quickly detach them when not needed.  Anyone have some ideas, photos, or better ideas?  Thanks in advance.  Shaun